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Discussion Starter #1
Sometimes Mechanics say weird things (authoritatively even) like a socket extension, for a torque wrench, messes up the applied torque.

Let the debate begin.
 

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the Mopar guy
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are we talking about Mechanics or "factory trained" technicians?? because now a days, there's a big difference. Mechanics often have experience to rely on experience to figure out problems (because they don't always have access to the latest and greatest in specialty tools / literature). Techs, particularly younger techs, are lost without a service manual, and don't have very good problem solving abilities. They go down the list, and replace stuff until the problem is solved. So if the book mentions that the dingle arm on the turboencabulator can only be serviced by Thai speaking techs wearing a special red jump suit, some would take that word as gospel lol. With that said, I have a lot of respects for the vets that have seen and done it all, because there's not many of those pros left.

My favorite was when I was trying to order parts from GM for my friend's G5. Trying to explain to the 50-something yr old parts veteran that it was the same as a Cobalt (because he couldn't find a listing for it), was like explaining the theory of relativity to a house cat. He wasn't hearing any of it lol. "Nope, 2 totally different cars!". My friend was just as bad. A GM technician himself, I asked him if he had the Ecotec in his Cavalier. All he knew was that it just an engine...."maybe a 2.0, or 2.2, can't remember??".
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
Yes, experience comes with being there done that in real life, not from reading a book and imagining how it's done.

I remember being at a training session one time regarding reorganization and a change in the business role of top managers, mostly male. One bright engineer, after introducing himself as "Juan Valdez, Columbia, Drugs" (hardly anybody noticed) during the "introduce yourself and your area of work" part, asked the question: "have any of those managers been pregnant"? That got everybody's attention for sure. His point was that without experiencing the role to begin with (like being pregnant), how could they talk about it with any credibility.

Back to the torque question. To be more specific, if I set the torque wrench at 100 ft.lbs. to torque up lug nuts, will say a 3" long socket extension affect the delivery of that torque, i.e. will I have less than 100 ft.lbs. actually applied?
 

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Back to the torque question. To be more specific, if I set the torque wrench at 100 ft.lbs. to torque up lug nuts, will say a 3" long socket extension affect the delivery of that torque, i.e. will I have less than 100 ft.lbs. actually applied?
***DISCLAIMER*** The following is purely speculation on my part; not based on any substantiated facts:

I would say no difference in torque so long as the extension has sufficient torsional rigidity; ie it doesn't twist under the load or twists minimally under load. I suppose theoretically if some twisting occurred then maybe the torque would be less while the torque is being applied. But then again after the extension twisted presumably it would have the same torque from one end to the other. I don't think any energy would be lost ultimately in the 'twisting'.

Are you just trying to mess with our brains, Jeepman? 'cause if so, you're doing a good job. :lol:
 

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the Mopar guy
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It would I guess depend on the rigidity of the extension. For the most part, I think it wouldn't have a huge impact on torque. I know I've used extensions to torque wheels, then double checked later after w/o and all were good, but your extension bar might not be the same as mine.

So how could it negatively affect torque accuracy?? Think of torque bars. Basically they act like a spring twist-beam that, once their torque threshold is reached, they twist and bounce back. Now, that applies with the use of an impact gun, so once their limit is hit, the hammer action of the gun and works with (or against??) the spring action of the beam, cancelling the ability to overtighten. For that reason, torque sticks don't work on torque wrenches, because there is no impact motion, rather torque is static.

Now, I cannot say for certain that they don't absorb some torque, but unless you're using a really long extension made of soft steel, and the torque numbers are extremely high, the loss likely wouldn't be measurable. This debate is a valid one that I've actually heard before in other circles, but the consensus has always been that they don't really have any great effect. Now, if you're not perfectly straight on the nut, which can happen when you're using an extension, that can throw things off a little bit, because the torque isn't being spread out evenly in a circle, but rather it's putting an uneven stress (same concept as if you were bending it).

So my short answer, no it doesn't effect things, but why not try for yourself?? It's super easy to find out. Tighten with a tested/trusted wrench + extension, then try it without.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
A self proclaimed oil filter expert shows you a Fram filter that is bulging and the seam at the base is unwrapping as well. He says "see, I told you, Frams are crap, look at this". Does he know what he is talking about?
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Are you just trying to mess with our brains, Jeepman? 'cause if so, you're doing a good job. :lol:
Are you saying "debate" should read "da bait"? :lol:

No, I am just trying to create some discussion on "debatable" items. Actually the torque debate is found on many sites on the internet. I agree with you and Jon Mopar about the torque being equal, i.e. no losses. Use any extension you want, no problem.
 

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fix it if you can
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On topic: [short answer] It all depends on the center of rotation of the socket vs extension - if the extension is 'wobbling' and shifting/displacing rotational center of the torque wrench, you have an additional lever which can theoretically effect torque applied to the fastener. In most cases this does not matter...

Off topic: Jeepman is looking to get a PhD in physics and mechanical engineering :)
 

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PT Driver
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There really is too many variables to say for sure how much torque will be lost by adding on an extension, but you will lose some as you're having to turn the extension before spinning the socket itself, it could only be 1 ft lb, or it might be 10 ft lbs. Also adding an extension onto your torque wrench will screw up the center of gravity while your spinning, and if its long enough when you're trying to torque the nut down, the wrench as a whole may be trying to come off the nut.

I personally try to never use an extension with my torque wrench, in fact I have a set of black deep well sockets meant for air tools that I use with my torque wrench specifically to torque nuts down, because those sockets are all 6 sided as opposed to the 12 point sockets. (and that is a whole other debate in itself)
 

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the Mopar guy
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I know fram filters were junk years ago. Mitsubishi engines were the worst...they were finniky with their oil pressure. Mopar filters have a pressure vent inside (a little hole basically) in them, where as the fram didnt. Mild lifter tick was often resolved with a change to mopar filters
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
In my opinion, using an extension is no different than using a long socket. Even if the extension twists a bit during the process (like a torsion bar), the torque at the nut has to counter the torque applied at the wrench i.e. be equal.

For a twist, let's say we are using a 3/8" drive by 12" long flexible socket extension and are torquing with a 90 degree bend in that extension. I wonder what 20 ft. lbs. of torque applied at the wrench looks like at the nut, if the extension will take it without coiling. I will have to do some experimenting with that for my Thesis atoman thinks I am working on (Post #8). :biggrin:
 

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OT somewhat - Canadian Tire has 2 torque wrenches, 3/8" and 1/2" on sale right now. Something like 60% off. Still too much as I would need both but couldn't get that past the finance committee this close to Christmas. :(
 

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A self proclaimed oil filter expert shows you a Fram filter that is bulging and the seam at the base is unwrapping as well. He says "see, I told you, Frams are crap, look at this". Does he know what he is talking about?
"Orange Can of Death". In decades of using Fram orange cans, I never had one issue. I've read dozens of articles on the topic at places like Bob Is The Oil Guy and elsewhere. If Fram filters were the only ones available, I would use them and not worry about it but I do relatively short oil change intervals. So, I would say to the "I told you so" guy that there is probably something else wrong with oil pressure in the system or that there was a random manufacturing defect in the filter he's holding. I think Frams are on par with other manufacturers regarding burst pressures and certainly capable of taking much more pressure than a car should produce even with oil at its most viscous. My 1.5 cents.
 

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Are you saying "debate" should read "da bait"? :lol:

No, I am just trying to create some discussion on "debatable" items. Actually the torque debate is found on many sites on the internet. I agree with you and Jon Mopar about the torque being equal, i.e. no losses. Use any extension you want, no problem.
I LOVE the idea of the thread. Using an extension is imperative with the flat bar torque wrench we have at the school. I insist that the kids use an extension to get adequate clearance from the body panels. I've seen paint scraped off wheel well edges. Yikes!
 

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A guy in a minivan forum says that Fluid Film is the best rustproofing compound available. Is he right? :sulkoff:
 

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Super Moderator
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Discussion Starter #16
I LOVE the idea of the thread. Using an extension is imperative with the flat bar torque wrench we have at the school. I insist that the kids use an extension to get adequate clearance from the body panels. I've seen paint scraped off wheel well edges. Yikes!
Good point, especially if the front wheels are cut a bit.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
A guy in a minivan forum says that Fluid Film is the best rustproofing compound available. Is he right? :sulkoff:
Gotta love the banter. :)

I hear that minivans can get the rusties so I am thinking he's probably right. The thing about Fluid Film is it's availability throughout Canada and the US. Products like Rust Check and Krown, although well known in Canada for being good products, are not well known in the US, it seems.
 

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Gotta love the banter. :)

I hear that minivans can get the rusties so I am thinking he's probably right. The thing about Fluid Film is it's availability throughout Canada and the US. Products like Rust Check and Krown, although well known in Canada for being good products, are not well known in the US, it seems.
All true. I think Fluid Film would - and I've said this before - collect less dust and as such be less likely to cake up and hold moisture. It just seems to make sense that it would be less likely to absorb dust and dirt but rather hold it on top leaving a greasy 'fresh' layer underneath. So, why am I not using it as a mainstay for rust proofing? It's a psychological thing. So far ATF (I have tons and it's free) and Coat and Protect (1/2 the price of FF) has kept rust away. My mind tells me that FF would be better but my pocketbook prevents me from moving forward. I've just got to get over that. :lol:
 

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PT Driver
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In my opinion, using an extension is no different than using a long socket. Even if the extension twists a bit during the process (like a torsion bar), the torque at the nut has to counter the torque applied at the wrench i.e. be equal.

For a twist, let's say we are using a 3/8" drive by 12" long flexible socket extension and are torquing with a 90 degree bend in that extension. I wonder what 20 ft. lbs. of torque applied at the wrench looks like at the nut, if the extension will take it without coiling. I will have to do some experimenting with that for my Thesis atoman thinks I am working on (Post #8). :biggrin:
And I think there is a difference, mostly depending on the size of your extension. A shorty extension will experience less loss than the 12" flexible extension, or pairing all your extension together for maximum loss :lol:

But I'm not saying the loss will be anything significant either, I'd imagine for what we'll call your thesis, you'll experience at most a loss of 5 ft. lbs., and even then I doubt it will be that much. Since you have to apply torque to the (I'm assuming you're using a flexible extension with u-joints, not the snake style) first bar, then to the u-joint, then to the last bar and finally to the socket itself. I'd expect around 2-3 ft. lbs. But it could be more, or it could be less, I am interested to see though.
 

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the Mopar guy
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My loathing for fram comes from working on Mitsus. I was big into the DSM (Eclise/Talon/3KGT/S etc scene). So the issues with those filters were amplified, because we were dealing with higher boost applications etc. I run the best, don't cheap out on the essentials. But I always say stick with what you like if it works for you.
 
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