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PT Driver
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Yep, it was almost exactly like the beginning of your quest into good brakes. lol

I have to find the 4th gen rear axle, and probably re plumb the rusted lines to the back and get a new master. I think the fronts will be fine for now.
that should theoretically work. the rear end might have a larger tracking on the 4G then 3G, but should still fit regardless, but I'd keep the 3G rear leafs personally. if you upgrade the front to 4G, you'd need 4G wheels as well, I think.

I wouldn't mind upgrading the rear brakes on my PT to discs but not in a huge hurry because the brakes on it work good enough. Never hit them hard enough to get them to even squeak, its not like I haven't tried before either lol.
 

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Discussion Starter #62 (Edited)
that should theoretically work. the rear end might have a larger tracking on the 4G then 3G, but should still fit regardless, but I'd keep the 3G rear leafs personally.
I would not try to swap in the whole rear axle. That was my original thought too, as you can see in post #9, which is why I bought the whole axle. But the interfaces with the springs and brake lines are different than they are in 3rd gen, so you would actually have to do a lot more work to swap in the whole axle as an assembly (if it's even doable). I'd just take off the parts you need from the 4th gen (backing plate with e-brake hardware, caliper brackets, calipers, e-brake cables) and bolt them in, reusing the original hubs, tone wheels, and speed sensors.

if you upgrade the front to 4G, you'd need 4G wheels as well, I think.
No need for 4th gen wheels if you do the front, at least not for 16" wheels - I reused my original 3rd gen spiderweb wheels. Lots of other mods needed though, it was a much bigger job than the rears.
 

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that should theoretically work. the rear end might have a larger tracking on the 4G then 3G, but should still fit regardless, but I'd keep the 3G rear leafs personally. if you upgrade the front to 4G, you'd need 4G wheels as well, I think.

I wouldn't mind upgrading the rear brakes on my PT to discs but not in a huge hurry because the brakes on it work good enough. Never hit them hard enough to get them to even squeak, its not like I haven't tried before either lol.

You can just swap the disc backing plates and parts to the 3rd gen axle. Lyonkster detailed this and the front brakes in his threads. Since I might be getting bigger rims, I'd like to have the power to lock them up if need be. And the 16 inch 3rd gen wheels fit with no issues as well.

I was thinking today too (which can be dangerous). Since the lowering kit for the 3rd gen is very expensive, I may do my own. Lower the spring perches on the front struts 3/4 inch or so, and shorter and relocate the rear shackles. Should be fairly easy mods to accomplish. And be affordable. I could pick up a set of complete struts from the wrecker for $60 and mod them for a test run, and a set of shackles/ mounts too. Oh the possibilities... :)
 

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I was thinking today too (which can be dangerous). Since the lowering kit for the 3rd gen is very expensive, I may do my own. Lower the spring perches on the front struts 3/4 inch or so, and shorter and relocate the rear shackles. Should be fairly easy mods to accomplish. And be affordable. I could pick up a set of complete struts from the wrecker for $60 and mod them for a test run, and a set of shackles/ mounts too. Oh the possibilities..
You can try this but there isn't much space under the spring perch. The stabilizer link mounts are in the way. I originally thought about this as well. (I already have done this an a couple of VW Super Beetles) The rear is easy.

Don't forget to get the proportioning valve from the rear disk van.
 

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You can try this but there isn't much space under the spring perch. The stabilizer link mounts are in the way. I originally thought about this as well. (I already have done this an a couple of VW Super Beetles) The rear is easy.

Don't forget to get the proportioning valve from the rear disk van.
I might be doing something about the sway bar anyways. I hate the junk end link design our vans have and the small bars. I miss the good 'ol bushing type links that never go bad. My dad's 72 cutlass has the original links with 105k miles and they are in good shape.
 

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Discussion Starter #66
To add to petet's reminder for the proportioning valve, you should get the one from a 3rd gen with rear discs. The 4th gen valves have different interfaces to the vehicle, while a 3rd gen rear disc proportioning valve will bolt in perfectly in place of the drum/disc proportioning valve. I couldn't find a 3rd gen with rear discs at the junkyard, so I ended up springing for a new one from a dealer.
 

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I really need to plan a junkyard trip soon. I'll have to plan it around my work schedule, but want to get some struts (should be a good set between 75 vans) to modify, and the rear axle.

Lyonkster, did you ever look into the 3rd gen discs?

Quick edit: The hubs bolt pattern looks the same, so maybe the awd disc parts would go right onto the standard axle. Though I'm not sure on the actual spacing of everything. I'll have to see if the hubs are the same height and everything.
 

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Discussion Starter #68
Lyonkster, did you ever look into the 3rd gen discs?.
Oh, I addressed this on the "What did you do to your Caravan today?" thread - here is the simple answer :) :

Rear discs and hardware are the same for 3rd gen and 4th gen . I got mine from a 4th gen donor, but the job would be the same for either vehicle (the only difference are the e-brake cable and the proportioning valve.)

3rd gen rear discs are more difficult to find, since they only came on AWD models, but all the hardware (backing plates, hubs, calipers, etc) is interchangeable. So if you can find a 3rd gen with rear discs, grab the disc parts and the e-brake cables and the proportioning valve. If you find a 4th gen, grab the disc parts and the e-brake cables.

Quick edit: The hubs bolt pattern looks the same, so maybe the awd disc parts would go right onto the standard axle. Though I'm not sure on the actual spacing of everything. I'll have to see if the hubs are the same height and everything
I think that in any case you will be reusing your original hubs and speed sensors, so I don't think the hubs of the donor vehicle matter.
 

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3rd gen > all others
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I thought if the van has ABS there is no need for a proportioning valve? I looked for one on the van, in catalogs, etc. and it doesn't exist (unless the van is non-ABS) so I believe the ABS takes care of rear brake locking. I have all of the parts to do the rear brake conversion, and we just ordered the front end parts that we need new in order to finish gathering the front conversion pieces.

One thing I noticed while at the junkyard: 2nd gen vans have front brakes with removeable caliper brackets, and have the same bolt pattern to mate to the 3rd gen struts. I wonder if using 2nd gen steering knuckles would be easier? It could eliminate the need for swapping the struts and lower ball joints/control arms. Caliper options would have to be looked into, but maybe it's possible to find some dual piston front calipers that bolt on, while using the 4th gen rotors. Just food for thought.
 

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The valve on ABS vans is just a distribution block for the MOST part. Disc brakes usually get a residual pressure valve which maintains 3-5psi on the brakes to keep the pads from retreating into the calipers. I might try the discs without the valve, then with just to see.

Since the yards around me have almost NO 4th gens, but loads of 3rd gens it is good to hear that the disc parts are the same as I'll be more likely to find a 3rd gen with awd.
 

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Discussion Starter #71
I thought if the van has ABS there is no need for a proportioning valve? I looked for one on the van, in catalogs, etc. and it doesn't exist (unless the van is non-ABS) so I believe the ABS takes care of rear brake locking. I have all of the parts to do the rear brake conversion, and we just ordered the front end parts that we need new in order to finish gathering the front conversion pieces.
All of our vans have proportioning valves. The difference is that ABS models have a fixed proportioning valve, and the non-ABS models have a height-sensing proportioning valve. The proportioning valves are also different for rear disc and rear drum models, since the front/rear split point is different. ABS does take care of brake locking, but the proportioning valves provides the proper pressure split between front and rear brakes, and the ABS has nothing to do with that.

One thing I noticed while at the junkyard: 2nd gen vans have front brakes with removeable caliper brackets, and have the same bolt pattern to mate to the 3rd gen struts. I wonder if using 2nd gen steering knuckles would be easier? It could eliminate the need for swapping the struts and lower ball joints/control arms. Caliper options would have to be looked into, but maybe it's possible to find some dual piston front calipers that bolt on, while using the 4th gen rotors. Just food for thought.
I am not sure of what you are trying to accomplish here. The big advantage of the 4th gen front calipers is the bigger piston diameter than the 3rd gen brakes. That gives you more clamping force for a given hydraulic pressure. But to get the 4th gen calipers to bolt on, you need the 4th gen knuckle, and 4th gen struts. If you can find nice dual piston calipers that will bolt onto the 3rd gen caliper brackets, then go for it, but I doubt you'll find something to fit those very unusual 3rd gen caliper adapter ways.
 

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Discussion Starter #72
Since the yards around me have almost NO 4th gens, but loads of 3rd gens it is good to hear that the disc parts are the same as I'll be more likely to find a 3rd gen with awd.
If that fails, I am pretty sure that you can get the needed parts through online wrecker sources. I think petet got all of his rear disc stuff for about $150 delivered.
 

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I bought my parts from Chuck & Eddies

http://www.chuckandeddies.com/

I paid $150+ shipping ($210 total) for all of the rear disk parts including the e-brake cables a proportioning valve but all they had at the time was one from a 4th gen. That's how I found out that the configuration was different.

I just looked at the Pick & Pull in Summit and it shows that they have 34 3rd gens.
10 Voyagers
19 Caravans
5 T & C

But they don't tell you if they are AWD or not.

This is where I usually go. It's kind of a drive but the prices are very cheap. A couple years ago I bought a complete Jaguar IRS with Limited Slip for $195!
 

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I go to summit, or hammond. I think the hammond one has more 3rd gens atm.
 

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I am not sure of what you are trying to accomplish here. The big advantage of the 4th gen front calipers is the bigger piston diameter than the 3rd gen brakes. That gives you more clamping force for a given hydraulic pressure. But to get the 4th gen calipers to bolt on, you need the 4th gen knuckle, and 4th gen struts. If you can find nice dual piston calipers that will bolt onto the 3rd gen caliper brackets, then go for it, but I doubt you'll find something to fit those very unusual 3rd gen caliper adapter ways.
That's why you change the knuckles to 2nd gen - - you can keep the same struts and lower control arms, and still have a knuckle that accepts a BOLT ON caliper bracket instead of one that is part of it. It opens a lot of doors of opportunity. Then find a dual piston caliper and bracket that bolts to the 2nd gen knuckle. 2 pistons should have more volume than the stock single piston for a hydraulic advantage, and 2 pistons will have a wider area of clamping pressure across the pad. It's just a matter of spending enough time in a junkyard taking measurements and finding the right parts to mock up.
 

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Discussion Starter #76
That's why you change the knuckles to 2nd gen - - you can keep the same struts and lower control arms, and still have a knuckle that accepts a BOLT ON caliper bracket instead of one that is part of it. It opens a lot of doors of opportunity. Then find a dual piston caliper and bracket that bolts to the 2nd gen knuckle. 2 pistons should have more volume than the stock single piston for a hydraulic advantage, and 2 pistons will have a wider area of clamping pressure across the pad. It's just a matter of spending enough time in a junkyard taking measurements and finding the right parts to mock up.
Ah, I see your point now. I am not that familiar with 2nd gen hardware, are you sure the 2nd gen knuckles will interchange easily with the 3rd gen, i.e. the hubs, tie rods, ball joints, and struts? If they will, then perhaps you are on to something, if you can find some caliper with bigger piston area, and a bracket that will place the caliper in the right position. I suspect those are big "ifs", but one never knows.
 

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Bolt on calipers is why I chose 4th gen spindles. The 2nd gen has the same size rotors as the 3rd gen and small caliper pistons as well. By using 4th gen parts you are able to get a slightly larger diameter and thicker rotor along with much larger caliper pistons to begin with. And if these weren't enough there are 12" rotors and hats (aftermarket) that will fit and any kind of caliper could be mounted.

You would need to see if the 2nd gen spindle would fit along with the hub. I believe there are 2 different spindles, one for the smaller brakes and one for the larger brakes--I think--although this may be 1st gen I don't remember for sure.
 

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Checked at a junkyard recently and it won't work. The 2nd gen knuckles are 1 1/2" wide where it meets the strut, and the 3rd gen is 1" wide. The 2 holes to bolt to the strut are different distances apart as well. That could be fixed by elongating the strut hole, but can't get around the thickness issue.

I did some measuring on a 4th gen spindle, and the caliper bracket holes are 5 1/2" apart center to center. I saw a Ford Explorer while leaving, and it had a big dual piston caliper hanging loose on the front. Measured the caliper bracket holes - - 5 1/2" apart! Maybe it could be an option.

The 4th gen stock front rotors are thicker, but they are not a larger diameter. I have verified this personally. I have also fitted a used 4th gen front rotor on my 3rd gen with thick front brake pads, and it fits. I didn't fit a wheel on to check for clearance though. The 4th gen rotors could be a quick front brake upgrade to start with, at least for those with the 5x114.3 stud pattern.
 

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I know this is doubtlessly a zombie thread... but I checked with my local dealer yesterday, and he said the proportioning valve's the same for AWD (4-disc) as it is for FWD (disc/drum). Master cylinder's different, though...
Also: thanks very much for this thread! I pretty much have the info I need to get my hand dirty on a project Chrysler should never have made necessary! Ah, well; still plenty for me to work on! :)
 

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LOL. Zombies ...
 
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