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2000 Grand Caravan - Won't Start

25K views 31 replies 8 participants last post by  dddon 
#1 ·
I've got a 2000 Grand Caravan with 3.3L V6 and 152K miles. Generally, the car has been running ok. I used the car yesterday and it was fine. This morning it would not start. Turn the key from off to run and I'm pretty sure I hear the buzz/hum of the fuel pump over the sound of the ding chimes. Turn the key from run to start a and the starter engages and turns the engine but it will not kick over. I put a multi-meter on the battery and it read 12.3v.

Here is what the car sounds like. I insert the key, turn to run and let the ding chimes stop then turn the key to start. Not the best recording but maybe it'll help:
(Click here for the .mp3)

What is the problem? Spark, Fuel? Any other possibilities? I'll try and do a spark test tomorrow. Also, I have a fuel pressure gauge with a schrader valve. Does the Caravan have a diagnostic port for that and if so what should the fuel psi be?

EDIT: No check engine light on. I plugged in my OBDII code reader and it confirmed no codes.

Thanks
-Bob
 
#2 ·
That really reminds me of a spark timing issue. I am almost thinking camshaft sensor but I would also think that would produce a code. The other infamous sensor is the crankshaft sensor.
Then of course, the coil itself or wires may be suspect. Sometimes the insulation breaks down and the resulting arc-over reduces the spark voltage to below what will allow starting.

A place to begin would be to spray some starter fluid in the intake snout while someone is cranking. If that gets a rise out of her, you know it is fuel related. Else, spark related.
 
#3 ·
Thanks for the info 98t&c. I borrowed a timing light form a friend today. This seems like a safe/simple way to check for spark at the end of the front 3 wires. Its difficult to get at those back three plugs so how do I check for spark back there? Can I use the timing light right at the coil to check for spark at all 6 posts. Is that even necessary. Maybe initially I should just concentrate on is there ANY spark so just do a check of the front three plugs. If I have spark at all three front plugs then check on fuel. If I do not have spark at any of the front three then concentrate on spark. For the fuel test your suggestion of spraying starter fluid in the intake sounds good I also read up on how to to the fuel pressure test in the Haynes manual using the Shcrader port and the Haynes manual specifies the PSI (49 IIRC).

OK, so when I get home from work today I'll try the quick spark and fuel tests to get some data. Right now I have not data.




I assume if I have spark then the problem is NOT the cam or crank sensors because form what I've read on this forum
 
#4 ·
Is it an inductive timing light, or an old school one that connects to the wire in series with the plug?

An inductive light will work anywhere on the plug wires, could check them all at the coil.
 
#5 ·
Its an inline timing light. For the back three plugs do you think I could rig this light up at the coil? Just clip the light's (green) clamp right to the coil post. Obviously, I wouldn't be testing the wires or plugs but at least it would tell me if the coil is working. For the front three plugs I'll clip it inline at the plug which will at least let me know if those wires are ok.

Wire Everyday carry
 
#6 ·
Ok, I have some data now.

Here is what I now know:
I have spark at all 6 posts on the coil. The timing light lit up on each post. I have fuel pressure on the front rail. Key in RUN position it jumps up to 50 psi initially then fades to 45 psi after a few seconds. Did not get psi reading with key in START position (forgot :)). Did not get reading on the back rail because its to difficult to get at. The battery now reads 12.25v.​

What now? What can I learn from this?

Does anyone have any suggestions for additional diagnostics?

Any idea what might be going on?

Thanks
-Bob
 
#7 ·
You have spark and good fuel pressure. Means none of the injectors are firing. You could shoot some starting fluid into the intake then crank it, it should fire a few times to confirm the no fuel issue.
 
#8 ·
The car was working fine one day and not the next so what would cause all the injectors to stop firing? Electrical? Its there a fuse for the injectors?

I will try the starting fluid intake test but how exactly do I do that? Do I take off that plastic tube in front throttle body, swing open the throttle body plate and just spray it in behind the throttle body and then crank the engine? Is that how you do it?
 
#9 ·
Yep do exactly that. But don't spray the stuff while cranking. Just shoot some in then turn the key. As to why its not getting fuel, not sure at the moment. I'll have to brainstorm.
 
#10 · (Edited)
Although the timing light sounds like a good idea to check for spark, it is not. It works for checking timing but will strobe even if the voltage is low. I have seen defective coils still produce a spark. Just not enough to get the engine started. Arcing coils or wires will compromise the spark enough to keep the engine from firing. A good test for arcing is to crank the engine at night in a dark location and look for arcing around the coil and wires. Make sure you eyes get accustomed to the darkness first.

However, first get a can of starter fluid and see it the engine will at least run for a few seconds. You could do as you mentioned and take the rubber connection off of the throttle body snout and spray some in there. Or you could try taking the air filter assembly apart but may be more work. Spray a reasonable amount but don't go overboard. Maybe a one second wide-open spritz. If you notice any difference in how it tries to start it is probably a fuel issue.
 
#11 ·
Ok, using a timing light to check for a good spark may not be so reliable. Thanks for the word of caution there.

Sound like I really need to do that starter fluid test. I'll get a can and try that tomorrow evening.

One more thought. It has rained for three straight days here and it poured all day Sunday and Monday morning was the start of this prolbem. Could a wet engine be causing this problem? I guess the starter fluid test may help answer that. If it kicks with starter fluid then wetness has nothing to do with it. Does that sound right?
 
#13 ·
Another quick test you can do is to try to dry out the electrical system. It might or might not work but worth a try. Take a can of WD40 and spray the coil and wires. Let it set for a moment then try to start. The idea behind this is that the WD40 will dry the insulation around those parts and keep arc-overs from occurring. I still recommend the night time or darkened garage check for arcing as well.

So, you have several things to play with. Oh yeah, and keep a fire extinguisher handy(jk..sorta) :cool:
 
#14 ·
Geezz will this rain ever stop. Ok, starter fluid intake test, darkness arc test, and WD40 dry out test. More things to try - I like it :). I thought WD40 was a penetrating oil. Will it really "dry" the wires. Won't they be covered with oil?

Also, no one has mentioned timing chain yet. The Haynes manual lists that last as a possible cause to no start. How likely is this? Any tell tail signs of this?

Thanks
-Bob
 
#15 ·
Part of me thinks that if the timing chain were to have failed, it would've broken while under-load, hence while the van is running. And since you didn't say it died the last time it ran, I'm not really sure if the timing chain broke unless it snapped when you first tried to start it again. But even so, the timing chains have an impeccable record on these engines... doesn't mean it's an impossibility though.
 
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#17 ·
If the timing chain were to break, your engine would crank very fast as if there were little or no compression...mainly because the valves would be partially open.

From your video, it really does remind me of erratic spark. Admittedly, WD40 is not the best thing to use but will work in a pinch and it is fairly benign. The auto stores actually sell a product to "dry" the electrical components(such as PERMATEX Ignition & Wire Dryer or GUNK Wire Dryer). So, you could pick up a can of this spray. These are not miracle cures but may help in isolating an arc problem.
 
#18 ·
Well it started. Sweet!!! This afternoon it finally stopped raining. When I got home from work I charged the battery and waved a hair dryer at the coil and wires for a few minutes but really they were pretty dry already. Then I cranked it over and it was a real hard and rough start and it idled roughly but after a minute it settled down. I let it idle for about 10 minutes to heat up the engine. I went for a test drive and it was ok. Then I let it sit for a few minutes and started it again. It started up pretty good this time. Not perfect but ok.

Moisture alone should not have done this, right? There must be some parts that are questionable and I should change them out. Its been about 70K miles since the wire set and plugs have not been changed out and I 'm thinking that its time to do that again. Do you think I should get a new coil? I don't want the next rain storm (oh, yea its raining again!) to strand me again.

I appropriate all the suggestions. You all have been very helpful.
 
#20 ·
Glad to hear that it started. Moisture in combination with compromised insulation(due to age and heat) are causing the no start. Your situation is fairly typical of either the wires or coil insulation breaking down when there is excessive humidity. Now, I know we covered this before but I will say it again...(I feel like the lecturing dad that I am ;-)...you have to get to the root cause if you want this thing nailed...watch the wires and coil in the dark and look for flashes of light. If jumping between wires then you know to replace those. If jumping from the coil to ground, then a new coil is needed. Or you could just shotgun it and replace coil and wires. Your call.
 
#21 ·
...(I feel like the lecturing dad that I am ;-)...
I don't feel like you're lecturing. Its a good test and I really do want to know. I'll try it tonight. Checking for the arcing while the car is running should be the same as while trying to start it right? So, tonight I can start up and just watch the engine and look for arcing right? This might be tricky since I have a street light at the end of my drive way. I'll give it a try and see how it goes.

As far as parts go I've already bought wires(Xact Part#3207) and plugs(Champion Double Platinum Part#7031) from Advance Auto because I think those are overdue anyway. But the coil is not cheep so hopefully tonight's test will confirm that I don't need a new one.

I'll let you know what I find and thanks again.

-Bob
 
#22 · (Edited)
Glad to see you are good-natured about the "lecturing" :thumb:

The street light could be a problem but you can try. Or turn the van around? Use a tarp or blanket to block the light? Anyway, I think you are going to see a light show. However,remember if it starts that means it is not so wet anymore and perhaps not much arcing. Another trick is to take a spray bottle of water and mist the wires and coil while running to purposely induce arcing. That will also show what is wrong when the arcing starts and the engine dies. So keep that in your hip pocket as well.
 
#23 ·
Light show indeed. Very interesting. There was near constant arcing from two of the wire connections to the coil. When I misted the coil with water all 6 connections at the coil showed some arcing. But its unclear to me if this incriminates the wire ends or the coil. Seems like it could be either. I guess I can recheck after replacing the wires and if the arcing persists then I'll change the coil. There was also some arcing between some of the wires themselves but most was at the coil connections. I continued with the misting and the engine started to run real rough. After it ran for a few minutes and dried off it went back to running fine. So should I replace the coil?
 
#28 ·
I was under the impression (faulty as it may be) that coil packs either failed, or their resistance increases to the point where they don't produce the output needed to consistently fire the plugs.

Aren't the coil packs one way - that way being out bound?

Wouldn't the plug wires be more suspect in this case?
Since the plugs (at least 3) were changed, I would suspect the gaps are set too wide causing excessive resistance.
My second suspicion would be the plug wires or the use of an improper conductive grease in the caps when pushing them onto the plugs?

UNLESS,,,the coil housing was breaking down or cracked? The arc is the spark finding the coil pack or another plug wire to be the path of least resistance....right?
In my experience, coil pack gradually go bad. The car begins to stall, backfire or miss and the problem progresses with time.
Or, they just fail and that's that.

Just thoughts. Not sure if there's any value in them or not.
 
#24 · (Edited)
The question being, if you soak your coil thoroughly, will that cause even a "good" system to arc? Glad you asked. With misting pump in hand, I headed out to the garage, started my 3.8 and proceeded to spray until the coil and wires into the coil were pretty much soaked. Nada. No arcing, no stumbling. Ran fine. My biggest concern was keeping water away from the serpentine belt which will readily hop off track.

So, based on that test, I would say your coil pack is highly suspect. You could replace just the wires at first (since you already have them?) and see what happens. But I am pretty sure you should be looking for a new coil as well. It really seems the coil insulation between nodes is breaking down. Especially between the two you first saw before misting. This is a fairly common problem with aging coils.
 
#25 ·
Good test 98t&c thanks. Yes, I do have new wires (and plugs) already. I'm trying to build up some confidence to tackle those three back plugs which seem like a real bear. Once the wires (and plugs) are swapped out I'll try that mist test again. If I still have arcing I'll get a new coil. Even though the coil is a bit pricy at least its really simple to replace.
 
#27 ·
I just tackled the three back plugs in mine. It is not as bad as you would think. There are a lot of threads dealing with the plugs and how to change. I found taking the wiper cowl and plenum off was pretty easy and you gain wide-open access to do other things as well...like change the valve cover gaskets.
We can walk you through it if you like. I took some pics and I know others have been thru it as well.
 
#29 ·
mistypotato thanks for taking the time to jot down you're thoughts - I think there is value to them :). The question being raised is how can I tell for sure if its the wires, plugs, grease, coil or some combination. The "light show" was very interesting since I had never seen arcing like that before and since I'm such a visual learner its really helped me understand. For the past year the car has progressively run rougher. I wanted to buy myself some time so this weekend I replaced the front three wires and plugs. The car runs a litter better but still not perfect. The car seems to start reliably now. With the three new wires in there I checked for arcing again that evening and it was much less. The three old plugs we wide. I think their gap was about 0.07. I assume the back three old plugs are as bad or worse. My next step is to do the back 3 plugs and wires. Once that's done I'll check for arcing again. If there is still arcing, then (and only then :)) I'll replace the coil. That's may plan anyway.
 
#30 ·
Bobby, Its not the plug gap, nor grease, nor phase of the moon. MistyPotato has thrown doubt into your mind and the reasons are really not all that plausible, IMO.
You mention that you replaced the front 3 wires and it seems to run a little better. And you checked the arcing again. Great. But did you mist the coil again? I think you will find that moisture still brings the engine to its knees. From where I stand, this is a fairly simple issue. Stay the course, get a new coil. IrishBrewer gave a promo code to get a coil for $45. Sounds reasonable.
 
#31 ·
I just listened to that sound file.

There was absolutely NO coughing or backfiring so clearly either no fuel or no spark on ANY cylinder.
To me, the coil primary winding is the chief suspect.

There is another possibility - the input to the coil from the ECU, but I would expect a trouble code if that was the case.
At $45 with promo code I would definately go for a new coil. Cost me £25 ($40) for a used coil from a breaker.
 
#32 ·
I am wondering why no suggestion was made to wipe down the coil with a soapy rag and remove the dirty film that had to be there !!
I grew up in a period of time where this was a FIRST response to arcing at the coil ... just wondering... dddon
 
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