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Using other than 5w20 in 05 3.8?

44K views 100 replies 18 participants last post by  shipo 
#1 ·
Hey ALL :hi2:

2005 3.8 Town and Country - Mobil 1 Syn

I understand that the 5w20 is used to get better gas mileage. If I'm ok with this concept and want to use 5w30 or 10w30 do we think this will void the warranty?

I do all the oil changes myself and keep all the reciepts. Just want to be sure that a pile of 5w30 reciepts will not cause havoc later with possible warranty issues.

Thanks in advance for all your responses :ThumbsUp: :beerchug:
 
#2 ·
No problem; but test results discussed on "bob the oil guy" web site have demonstrated that Mobil 1 5W-20 provides at least as much protection if not more than their 5W-30 product. There is much overlap in the specifications for viscosity. Any good name brand 5W-20 should provide you with more than adequate service. If you are driving in over 100 degree F pulling a heavy load up hill than a 10W-30 might be a more appropriate viscosity for that use. Common sense and a little knowledge can go a long way.

Richard
 
#3 ·
It wouldn't void the warranty unless they can prove that the failure was caused by the thick oil.

My question is why would you even consider 5W-30 or 10W-30? 5W-20 is tested, validated, and specified by Chrysler. Ford also uses it and Honda also uses it. Used Oil Analyses have shown EXCELLENT wear numbers with this oil, better even than 5W-30 sometimes. 5W-20 stays in grade better and longer than 5W-30 does. There's no reason to NOT use 5W-20 in your 2005+ engine.

I happen to be running Mobil 1 5W-20 in my 2007.
 
#4 ·
I was leary about using 5w-20 in my 05 also, since it is the same engine as before with no obvious changes that spec'd 5/10w-30.
After some research though, 5w-20 is what I use now.

As for voiding the warranty, technically, as Jason said, they would have to prove it caused the failure, but why give them ammo by handing them a handful of receipts saying 5w-30 when they will say "well, the manual and oil cap say 5w-20".
 
#7 ·
I was leary about using 5w-20 in my 05 also, since it is the same engine as before with no obvious changes that spec'd 5/10w-30.
The changes could be as small as slightly tighter bearing tolerances (just a different bearing part number). That's where the oil's weight really comes into play -- at the rubbing surface.
 
#5 ·
5w20 will only cause you problems if you push your engine to the point that the increased shear properties of a higher weight oil are needed. Chances are you never will.
 
#8 · (Edited)
When the going gets tough, I think you'll be better off with the 5W-20 vs. the 5W-30. Why?

Conventional oils are formulated using the lower of the viscosity numbers on the oil bottle. A conventional 5W-30, for example, is formulated with 5W oil, and Viscosity Index Improvers (or VIIs) are added to bring the oil up to 30W viscosity under normal operation temperature (which is in the 10 cSt range at 100*F, give or take). During normal use, oil will shear, which breaks it down. A conventional oil will actually lose some of its viscosity, and will try to retrograde back to its native viscosity (in this case, 5W). The oil will "thin" out, and won't really be a 30W oil at normal operating temperatures. It's often said (when folks argue against 5W-20, and I'm not saying that you are) that a normal 5W-30 or 10W-30 shears down to close to a 20W oil after a few thousand miles anyway. Because the 5W-20 oils don't have as many VIIs (because they're only going from 5W to 20W, instead of 5W to 30W), they don't shear down as much, and stay in grade better.

Synthetic oils, as I understand, are formulated using the higher weight oil (20W or 30W) and use Pour Point Improvers (PIIs) to improve the cold pouring point. In this way, there's no where for a synthetic oil to "shear to", since its native viscosity is already what you want to be running anyway.

I think the real benefits of these new 5W-20 oils are demonstrated in Ford having retrospecified that oil for many of its older engines. The argument that the oil is only used for CAFE reasons goes out the window. Ford has nothing to gain by you running 5W-20 in a 1999 Crown Vic vs. 5W-30. And they have specifically EXCLUDED this grade of oil for SOME of its previous engines, indicating that it really is not compatible with some engines, for some reason. The only reason I wouldn't use 5W-20 in a pre-2005 3.3L/3.8L Chrysler engine is because Chrysler hasn't specifically retrospecified it yet. If they do, I'd have full confidence that the engine is 100% compatible with the oil. If they don't, then at least some part of me will feel that there truly is a key component or components in the 2005+ engines that allow for and are optimized for the 5W-20 oil vs. 5W-30. The owner's manuals used to allow 10W-30 vs. 5W-30 if you were in warmer weather, etc. Not anymore. The ONLY grade allowed is 5W-20, and I'm confident that there are valid engineering reasons for it.
 
#6 ·
HAPHAP05:

With the advent of advancing engine technology along with the quest for better fuel economy, the lighter weight oils have come about.

Todays engines are built with more precise tolerances/clearances which were not possibly years ago. Thus, thinner oil flows better through the smaller passages.

I was introdced to 20w back in 2001 when Ford began to spec it for some of their vehicles to include the Crown Victoria. Since then, Honda and Chrysler have followed suit.

IMO, when your vehicle is under warranty you want to follow the factory specs when it comes to maintenance. Regardless of what others may say, if your documentation does not match their requirements, the burden of proof will be on you, not them. Most of us are not attorneys, nor do we have the resources to go out and find alternate transportation while our primary vehicle is down for what may end up being an extended period of time.

I was in a dealers service bay some years back, and chatted with a wrench there while waiting for some parts. He was working on a fairly new Grand Marquis that had engine bearing issues. When I inquired how a new vehicle could have bearing issues, he replied that the wrong grade of oil had been put in the motor, and that the repair was not covered under warranty.

Don
 
#12 ·
Well put.

However, I bet that if you dug into it the clearances were not changed at all for the 5w20 vs the 5w30 change. Probably nothing more than a bunch of testing to say that it was OK to do. The same reason that Ford made the change retroactive. It was OK.

Is this really better?
Better mileage, sure.
Better cold start-up, no because it is still 5w.
Better shear at temperature, given apples to apples oil the 20 will be worse. Better oil flow, only if the bearing clearances etc. were left the same. If they were tightened because of the thinner oil then pressure will be the same, cold start would be worse, and potential for bearing damage would be increase because you would have less oil with a lower shear protecting them.

If it was engine life and bearing protection they were interested in they would have done what they do with racing engines: Thicker is better.
 
#16 · (Edited)
Better cold start-up, no because it is still 5w.
Better shear at temperature, given apples to apples oil the 20 will be worse. Better oil flow, only if the bearing clearances etc. were left the same. If they were tightened because of the thinner oil then pressure will be the same, cold start would be worse, and potential for bearing damage would be increase because you would have less oil with a lower shear protecting them.
I don't think I follow you here. First off, almost every single 5W-20 oil is THINNER cold than 5W-30 is, even though both adhere to the "5W" range. Consider most of Valvoline's line. The 5W-20's viscosity at 40C is in the 45 cSt range. Still way too thick (remember, the engine wants to see about 8-10 cSt), but it's what we got. Most of their 5W-30 oil's viscosity at the same temperature is in the 60 cSt range. Their 10W-30 is upwards of 65-70 cSt. All of these are too thick. But with the 5W-20, you've got to "come down" from only 45 cSt as the oil warms up, rather than 60-70 cSt. That's not insignificant when you're talking about bearing protection.

This is why 0W-20 oil would be even better. It wasn't available when the 2005 spec was brought forward for these engines, and specifying a synthetic oil isn't popular for US vehicles anyway, especially not for a minivan.

And again, I'm not sure I follow you that "cold start would be worse, and potential for bearing damage would be increase" if the bearing clearances were tightened. If they were tightened, they were done so with the thinner oil in mind. Remember that a 5W-20 oil is thinner than a 5W-30 oil when cold, even though both are "5W" oils.

If it was engine life and bearing protection they were interested in they would have done what they do with racing engines: Thicker is better.
No, thicker is NOT better! Proper oil pressure and flow is better. In fact, have a look at Royal Purple's line of racing oils:

http://www.royalpurple.com/specialty-racing-oil.html

These are 0W-10 and 0W-7 oils they're running here -- super super light viscosity.

You'll also notice that many of Elf's racing oils:

http://www.lubadmin.com//Restitution.aspx?Marque=3&Famille=34&Type=2&Language=1&Site=4&Parametre1=2

...are light weight, including 0W-20 and 0W-30. They also have thicker racing oils for specific applications.

You'll find this quote:

The oil which lubricates and protects the engine from overheating is very similar in viscosity to water.

...on this site: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_One#Cars_and_technology

Again, it's not the thickness or viscosity of the oil that determines the level of protection. Viscosity does not protect. The optimum flow and pressure for the clearances and wear surfaces are what protects, and this is accomplished by specifying a particular viscosity. But it's certainly a case where more is not necessarily better. More can absolutely be worse.

But 5W-30 vs. 5W-20? Probably not enough to even be able to measure over so many thousands of miles. It is interesting, however, that many BITOGers are switching to 5W-20 oils, even though their manufacturer has not recommended it, and are seeing BETTER wear numbers (lower) compared with what they used to run. The modern 5W-20 oils really are fantastic products.
 
#14 ·
Yep, a good synthetic is a great product, but the major benefit is longer change intervals. If you change every 2,500 miles and it never gets down to 20 below, or don't run a non-cooled turbo charger in your rig, you will not see much benefit from a synthetic.

I hope they come out with an extended use version of Mobil 1 5W-20 since I change the oil once a year in my 3.8 even if there is still some good use left in the used oil. I'm just too conservative to go 2 years on the stuff.

Richard
 
#18 ·
By the way, Mobil 1 5W-20 has a cold (40C) viscosity of 48.3 cSt (and a hot viscosity of 8.8 cSt).

The Mobil 1 5W-30 has a cold vis of 64.8 cSt and a hot vis of 11.3 cSt. Even though both oils are 5W oils, the 5W-30 is significantly thicker at 40C. And that's at 40C, which is still over 100*F. At 0*F, the difference is even more, since these are essentially linear scales.

The same is really true over at Pennzoil, with their Platinum product.
5W-20 is 46.8 and 8.5 for the same vis temperatures considered above.
5W-30 compares at 57.5 and 10.3.
 
#19 ·
oil

My Chrysler dealer still uses 10W-30 for all their oil changes except the hemi models. I asked about warranty and they said it would not affect it even though the book only specifies 5w-20 for our 2007 3.3 . They also still use the larger filter instead of the new smaller filter for these engines.
 
#28 ·
My Chrysler dealer still uses 10W-30 for all their oil changes except the hemi models. I asked about warranty and they said it would not affect it even though the book only specifies 5w-20 for our 2007 3.3 . They also still use the larger filter instead of the new smaller filter for these engines.
If you want them to use 5W30 or 5W20, you can ask them to. If they won't, take it somewhere else. My dealer gave me free oil changes for life. I took advantage of it a few times, mostly because for the first 48K miles they provided a free rental. However, they would not tell me what kind of oil they were using or what grade unless I asked. I believe the last time I asked them to use 5W30, and they complied, but if I had not asked, they would have gone with 10w30, which was not the preferred viscosity for how I drive, and the climate I live in.

I recently was looking at the new Motorcraft oil and filter chart in Wal-Mart, and discovered that 5W20 is now recommended for my Ford and my Mercury (Which I had heard here, but since I had not seen it in writing from Ford, was not jumping to it). I bought 4 quarts for the next oil change.

One reason not to use 5w20 is that it is harder to find. 10W30 is plentiful, 5w30 is a little harder to find, but 5w20 is scarce in most places where I shop. Next time I see a case for less than $2 or $2.50 a quart, I'm snapping it up.

I sure would like to hear from Chrysler and Toyota about using 5w20 in the Van and the Lexus. It is much more convenient to just buy one grade of motor oil, by the case.
 
#21 ·
I had a lot of concern living in Arizona where it can hit 110-120 degrees in the summer and using 5W20 oil in my 2005 Dodge GC, so I asked my service adviser about using 5W30. He advised me not to. He said 5W20 will hold up just fine even in this Arizona heat.
 
#24 ·
Okay, I'm thinking that the difference between how A. E. Haas has presented the synthetic oil discussion and how I've presented it are semantics. He presents from a basis of how the oil flows when hot and I present from a basis of how the oil flows when cold. Our language is identical with regard to mineral oil, however, as synthetic oil is so stable that it doesn't need any VIs (or PPIs for that matter), our language diverges in our presentations, but the meaning is the same. Synthetic oil is so naturally stable that it can be made to meet any number of multi-grade oil specifications with no viscosity modifiers at all (up or down). Consider the following from his "Motor Oil 102":

Synthetic oils are a whole different story. There is no VI improver added so there is nothing to wear out. The actual oil molecules never wear out. You could almost use the same oil forever. The problem is that there are other additives and they do get used up. I suppose if there was a good way to keep oil clean you could just add a can of additives every 6 months and just change the filter, never changing the oil.

When the additives wear out in a synthetic oil it still has the same viscosity. It will not thin as a mineral oil. The fear that some say Porsche has that oils thin when the VI runs out is not applicable to these synthetic oils. These oils will always have the correct thickness when hot and will still be too thick at startup as with all oils of all types, regardless of the API / SAE viscosity rating.
 
#26 ·
Okay, I'm thinking that the difference between how A. E. Haas has presented the synthetic oil discussion and how I've presented it are semantics. He presents from a basis of how the oil flows when hot and I present from a basis of how the oil flows when cold. Our language is identical with regard to mineral oil, however, as synthetic oil is so stable that it doesn't need any VIs (or PPIs for that matter), our language diverges in our presentations, but the meaning is the same.
Perhaps. He could be wrong, I don't know. He does flat out say, though that a 10W-30 mineral oil is formulated from 10W stock, and that a 10W-30 synthetic is formulated from a 30W stock.

Maybe it's more accurate to say that a 10W-30 synthetic is formulated with chemistry such that the SAME fluid acts as a 10W and a 30W oil under different temperatures, and that additional viscosity modifiers aren't necessary?
 
#34 ·
I've always wondered no matter where you take your vehicle
for an oil change do you get what you ask for or what ever is
the most profitable oil.
You can't always stand there and watch.
You could specify 5W-20 and get 10W-30.
Would be convenient if eneryone could do their
own oil changes.

Vtech.
 
#35 ·
I do my own oill and antifreeze changes, but the hardest part is getting someone to take the used fluids.
Only one WallyMart in our area takes oil for recycling and you really have to go out of your way to make that happen. You have to get a manager to walk out back, unlock the storage area and wait while you dump, then sign the forms, pick up your empty containers and take them somewhere else for disposal. No one around here takes antifreeze except the County hazardous waste collection point... open one day a month.
It's a pain, but at least I know what I'm getting.
AND, THANKS! for the brilliant discussion on oil characteristics!
 
#37 ·
I do my own oill and antifreeze changes, but the hardest part is getting someone to take the used fluids.
Only one WallyMart in our area takes oil for recycling and you really have to go out of your way to make that happen. You have to get a manager to walk out back, unlock the storage area and wait while you dump, then sign the forms, pick up your empty containers and take them somewhere else for disposal. No one around here takes antifreeze except the County hazardous waste collection point... open one day a month.
It's a pain, but at least I know what I'm getting.
AND, THANKS! for the brilliant discussion on oil characteristics!
I know here in NY anyone that sells oil has to take used oil for recycling . I take it down to the nearest Advance auto and they have a big barrel in the back and you just dump it in . I usually do this when it time for the oil change then I can buy a filter and oil and they can feel they aren't just being used for a oil dumping ground .
 
#39 ·
The MO-090 that Wal-Mart sells is the same size as the smaller Mobil 1 filter shown in Shipo's mug shot. Internally, it looks exactly like a Motorcraft FL-1A, with the rubber spring/seal right at the top near the threads. Our 2007 came with the real small one from the factory. I changed the oil at 1000 miles, and put a MO-090 on it. The standard Purolator and Fram replacements are still the "medium" size.
 
#40 ·
My 07 came with the "medium" size filter. However, Friday's dealer oil change (free...or I'd done it myself) netted a "tea cup" filter. My 2 cylinder lawn mower takes the same size filter...

FWIW - the service manager made a passing comment about all the lifter noise they've been having with late model 3.3's. IMHO - it's the 5W20 SM oil coupled with reduced zinc. Lifters, cams and valve guides seem to suffer first from poor lubrication.

My 2 cents,
 
#72 ·
I think you are correct , I remember I had a 96 with the 3.0 liter and the specified grade was either 5w-30 or 10w-30 . I always used 10W-30 . One time I decided to try Mobil 1 5w-30 , what a mistake that thing sounded like a diesel it was so noisy after that , got that stuff out of their asap and went back to dino which immdeiatly quieted it back down.
 
#41 ·
Thought this would be appropriate to post here...

Our 2007 has developed a lifter tick that's most noticeable at cold idle, but is there at warm idle as well. I'm going to change the oil first. It appears that Mobil 1 is now using poorer-quality base stocks than it used to, and this is what first came up when I Googled for "mobil 1 engine noise":

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/t180017.html

One of the most common complaints I read about Mobil 1 is increased engine noise. This is about 3500 miles into the change. I plan to pour some dino 5W-20 today and see if the noise goes away. I'll probably use yellow bottle Pennzoil, and if that quiets it down, I may try Pennzoil Platinum at the 10,000 mile mark. I'm using it in my Cadillac with good success so far.
 
#44 ·
Since fuel economy is even MORE of an issue in Europe, wouldn't Chrysler use the thinnest oil possible in their market? In other words, if fuel economy were the reason, you'd think the European markets would be the first to get it. The EPA economy ratings didn't change between 2004 and 2005, so I'm not sure that fuel economy is the reason.

I used Pennzoil yellow bottle 5W-20 ($2/per at Advance) and an FL-1A filter. Noise is still there. Quieter, but still distinct. We're flying to Arizona later this week, but when we get back, I may pour in some 5W-30 something (not even change the filter) and see if the noise changes.

It's a distinct tap-tap-tap at idle, and at speeds up to about 1300-1400 RPM. It's not loud, but you can definitely hear it in the garage. You can actually hear it to the SIDE of the vehicle more than the front. Lying under it, the noise appears to be coming from the rear cylinder bank. But I'm not sure it's an exhaust leak or anything like that, because it only does it at slow engine speeds, to about 1300-1400 RPM. After that, all falls silent. It should be too early in this engine's life to be carbon rap. Sound like a collapsed lifter?
 
#46 ·
It actually sounds a LOT like like "cold carbon rap". I don't think any SM oil-related issues would arise this early. The engine's not even close to broken-in yet. Our 2003 had 75k when we sold it and it was quiet. Most of these engines go hundreds of thousands of miles on SM oil, don't they?

I'm going to put some 5W-30 in it next.

If the noise goes away, I'll be:
a) pleased,
b) highly embarassed for insisting that Chrysler knew what they were doing spec'ing the 5W-20 oil, and
c) buying 5W-30 oil from now on.

If the noise doesn't go away, and continues to bother me, I'll be:
a) taking the van to the dealer,
b) highly annoyed when they tell me that this is a "normal" noise, and
c) very glad I bought the $900 lifetime powertrain warranty.
 
#47 ·
I started hearing "lifter noise" on my 5W20 fed 05 at about 12K. I'll see how the 07 does with 10W30 but at 10K...so far so good. All my other 3.3's went well over 150K on 10W30 without any issues...especially lifter noise.

I hope you find a solution soon.

Kevin
 
#49 ·
When I switched my 05 to 10W30 it really helped the hot noise. I'm talking 95+ degree weather at interstate speeds. I'd pull off the interstate with 5W20 and it sounded like the lifters were changing holes.

All my 07's had since I dumped the factory fill has been 10W30...until Friday. I had a free dealer oil change coming so now I'm blessed with 5W20 and a "tea cup" filter...I added some EOS to jack up the zinc level.

I'll be changing it sooner rather than later.
 
#50 ·
Mine seems to quiet down once warm. You can kind of still hear it, but not much. All you can really hear is the purr from the injectors. It's most apparent on a cold start in the garage.

I heard that the GM EOS has been discontinued. Any truth to that?
 
#51 ·
According to my local Chevy dealer EOS concentrate is still available...what was discontinued was the mixed quart version. STP Red is reported to contain massive amounts of the old style (pre SM) anti-wear agents. In addition to my 3.3, I still have a couple of flat tappet engines which require additional cam lobe protection.

I'm aware of the BITOG reports showing some good 5W20 results. I'll submit for discussion that valve and valve guide metals don't necessarily show up in those reports. Valves are directly in the combustion chain and wear metals are exhaled out the exhaust and not flushed back to the oil sump.

Just a thought from a non-expert...
 
#55 ·
Shell's Rotella T is now SM-labeled, but I saw a (recent, from what I could tell) PDS for it and it had TONS of zinc in it, which is typically associated with older oils. Who knows. I was running the Shell Rotella T in 10W-30 weight in my Cadillac. It was a rather thick oil, though, and I noticed a slight increase in "pep" when I changed to Pennzoil Platinum 10W-30.

Patience is not my virtue, and I picked up some 5W-30 at lunch today...going to try and fill the van after work. The parts man at Advance said that his Ford truck that requires 5W-20 quieted down like a kitten on 5W-30. We'll see.
 
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